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A few ideas

rohirim91

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Hello everyone,

Having played this map for years now, I would like to share some of my thoughts about it with you. I am mainly playing Shadow Council, Ranger Corps and Highborne, but have also played other factions occasionally as well, so I can say I saw the map from different in-game perspectives.

General Observations:
  1. Techtree-expanding upgrades - these upgrades are mostly dependent on game time elapsed or other such upgrades, which is quite dull as it only requires you to wait for x minutes to pass.
  2. Civil War - unless UD and Legion teams have been working really closely or Legion team sharing land border with UD team, them splitting up wont hurt them in the slightest. To the contrary, it would buff them, since Civil War unlocks a vast amount of content for several Evil factions. Another problem is no Civil War happening at all which leads to UD tping south/Green and Brown going north to fight alongside Grey/Legion going north to help UD team.
  3. Extreme tankyness of late game melee units, elites and heroes (mostly melee) - This is a problem if you have to chase a cp sniping hero squad or a ninja Arthas going on a sneaky Frostmourne-grabbing trip to Northrend, or fight late game hero squads who can kill entire armies on their own.
  4. Many units and heroes having quite small collision sizes - It is often hard to effectively surround units and heroes during unorderly retreats of enemy armies. One can imagine how frustrating is to see a huge, lumbering Magtheridon moving through tight gaps with no problem.
  5. Ease of spamming air units - certain factions start with op air units (looking at you brown). Undead air units are the real problem here as you can have a combined UD team air army numbering dozens of various air units.
  6. Ease of stacking numerous buffs on your units - combined with high hp and armor, this makes fighting previously mentioned hero squads of certain factions quite obnoxious.
  7. Ease of teleportation, moving through worlds and base aiming - this is especially a problem for factions with parts of their techtree being dependent on certain bases. You can quite regularly see UD team ninja entering Mardum with Naxxaramas, or Sylvanas and Vereesa casually entering Mardum to take the OP bow and teleport away with troll faces before you can even notice them. Not to mention teleporting on Shades, Eyes of Archimonde, etc.
  8. Ease of tower spamming - not much explanation needed here I recon.
  9. Navies having little relevance - the only type of ships you really need are transports, which are too fast to be taken out by small/medium sized fleets without some form of slowing them down.
  10. Shalandris Isle - it is nothing more than a free gold bank, even though the island is a barren piece of dirt with no real use. No to mention that you can take it without even landing on it.
  11. Mana Flare - it doesn't really seem to do that much with so many aoe healing spells and items available.


Suggestions/Ideas:

General:

  1. Making some of these upgrades dependent on player actions/achievements. Some examples:
    1. Teal getting Infernals/Pit Lords/Doom Guards when his team destroys Ironforge, Dalaran, Capital. Quel'Thalas, Frozen Throne, etc. Kazzak could be made available after at least one of them is destroyed and Civil War happens.
    2. Smolderthorn trolls upgrade is available only after either Aerie Peak or Ironforge is available. It makes no sense for Voone and his tribesmen to join the Dark Horde without Rend and his bois proving they mean business.
  2. Civil War needs to happen automatically if certain criteria is met. This could include the destruction of certain capitals, Teal getting Book of Medivh or the Sunwell, Alliance losing 2+ players etc. In short, the system needs to assure that Evil team splits as soon as they make enough progress in their conquest of Azeroth.
  3. HP regen buffs, health, heals and armor need to be small enough to prevent late game fights from turning into hero squad brawls. Armies need to be necessary in order to win, as I don't think this was meant to be a hero defense map.
  4. The bigger the unit the bigger its collision size should be. Collision sizes in general need to be big enough to allow surrounds of retreating enemies, ninjas and cp sniping hero squads and units.
  5. Starting air units should be few in numbers or not at all present (strong ones especially). Food cost could be increased to 2 for stronger types of air units like Nether Dragons, Frost Wyrms, Brown's/THC dragons, OJ's Black Drakes, etc. Weaker types could be limited to 6 like OJ's Black Dragon Whelps are in case of multiple air units being available to the player and/or his team (UD team for example). Air units should all have light/unarmored/summoned armor type, with Dragon Scales type of upgrade being available if it makes sense.
  6. This could be solved by making a plethora of buffs (especially auto-cast and aoe ones) faction specific. A good example of this is Anasterian's E ability, which only applies to Highborne units (might be RC's as well but im not sure).
  7. Scrolls of teleportation should only be able to target Town Hall type of buildings, and certain special buildings like Keep Towers, Lordaeron Bastions, etc. It would also be able to target only fully built structures, in case that is not too performance-heavy to implement.
    1. (6. part two) The two portals to Mardum could be closed by Teal, as long as he controls at least one of the portals. The portals' defenses would be strengthened by adding unit production buildings near them and making the area around them favorable for defense. This would end the days of trivial and unopposed entering of Mardum. The way to teleport into Mardum would be by using scrolls of teleportation or Dreadlord, Teron Gorefiend and Shadow Council's elites' tp abilites. The shop item for opening portals should be available only after 30 minutes have passed (if that already isn't the case).
  8. Making towers either limited and/or have a food cost could improve the situation.
  9. Reduce the movement speed and, if needed, health of transports. This, combined with a few more island cps (Purgation Isle, Crestfall, Zul'Dare) would make naval dominance more important.
  10. Either make the cp invulnerable until some event happens or widen the island enough for battleships to not be able to hit the cp. Some relatively tough creeps could be put on it as well. Making ships unable to hit cps at all would be good in general.
  11. Either increasing the damage it does or making it also burn the target's mana could help.

Faction Specific:
  • Dalaran - never really seems to run out of mana. Dalaran city itself can be obnoxious to attack if the defender is a decent player, in part due to the two defensive crystals facing Hilsbrad being unattackable from afar, except by the attack ground command on siege weapons. Nerfing brilliance aura could help. Removing or nerfing Wise Council would make mana more scarce in general.
  • Highborne:
    • Dawnstrider Harbour could be given a multishot attack and/or starfall like the one that the Windrunner Spire has. the base itself could be expanded a bit and have more buildings in it, Spawning 3 frigates instead of 2 or a battleship and 2 frigates upon getting the base would be good as well. To balance this out the base itself would require a hero of a high enough level (6 - 8) to be spawned.
    • Wretched should only be available once Sunwell has been taken by enemies and 10-15 minutes to have passed since then to prevent UD team from getting free Sunwell.
  • Ranger Corps:
    • They should turn Forsaken only if Sylvanas is killed by a UD team faction and the Plague has been launched.
    • They are be forced into Forsaken if Quel'Thalas has been destroyed. Just like Antonidas dies once Dalaran falls, Sylvanas should die if Quel'Thalas is destroyed.
    • Vereesa and all elven lodges gained from the Silver Covenant upgrade are transferred to Silverhand/Argent Crusade/Alliance if Forsaken happen. If Scarlet Crusade/Onslaught are present they would go to Dalaran or Blood Elves/Highborne.
  • Blue:
    • All caster units should be limited to 10-12. Blue should only have a limited amount of casters since Grey is supposed to provide casters for UD team (or at least that is what makes sense to me).
    • Blue would have to accept Wretched into UD team, and if he does, all San'layn units are replaced with their original counterparts and those without them are removed. Valanar and En'kilah are transferred over to Wretched. Valanar would be unrevivable. It seems logical that the San'layn would be grouped up with their Wretched brethren if the latter joined the Lich King. It would also make Blood Elf players think twice before attempting to hop onto the UD train of doom in hopes of easy victory.
    • Sapphiron should either only be summonable by Arthas, or be transferred to Dark Green if he becomes the Scourge. He is Arthases personal pet after all.
    • A general problem with Blue is that he spends the first 10-15 minutes creeping the majority of Northrend unopposed, which he can do even with half of his starting units (been there done that). The player can thus focus on getting 6/6 upgrades and proceed to stomp his enemies with the help of Grey. To solve this I propose something in the lines of:
      • Azjol-Nerub can be gained only by capturing its citadel. Elder Nadox will no longer drop to ~10% of his health upon being approached by Blue. This would give Blue an actual challenge during his early game. Currently you can send 4 Gargoyles and kill Nadox while you creep Ulduar.
      • Storm Giants are laughable at the moment. They should be given spell resistance and some aoe ability (Thunder Clap, Chain Lightning, etc). Cleaving attack would make sense as they are huge.
      • Sapphiron should be buffed up and be surrounded with Blue Dragons/Drakes/Whelps. He is rather tough in the Frozen Throne campaign and that should be reflected in this map.
      • Zul'Drak should be tougher to take too, as Grey can easily take it with his starting units in Northrend. Buffing up the towers/adding splash damage towers and adding a few more strong troll units would do it.
      • Bounty would have to be readjusted due to the increased number of creeps.
    • Nerubian Web Spinners (the ones with Blink and Web) should replace Crypt Fiends and Aqir Sentinels should replace Gargoyles. The former are a buffed up version of Crypt fiends and there is no reason to have two versions of the same units available. Currently Blue has access to 3 air unit types (Sky Barges not included) and replacing Gargoyles with Aqir Sentinels would reduce this count to 2 (they are also stronger than Gargs).
    • Summoned Nerubian Guards should have timed life. Currently Anub'Arak can summon endless swarms of these walking tanks. Another solution is to make his ulti spawn other Nerubian units instead.
    • Blue should start with 550 gold, so that he is left with 250 after picking his first hero. This way he would have the same amount of gold at start as other factions do (everyone else starts with 250 if I remember well).
    • Civil War should automatically get triggered if Capital/Dalaran/Quel'Thalas fall. If evil team managed to destroy either of them, id say they have the upper hand and should split to let other factions stand a chance.
  • Grey:
    • Kel'Thuzad's escape to Northrend spell (or item, I don't remember) should not make him invulnerable and should have a 5-7 second casting time. After all, his death seems to have been a part of Lich King's plan all along. Personally I would remove it completely, but many would likely disagree.
    • Naxxaramas should only be summonable by lich-form Kel'Thuzad, or at least require the Plague to be unleashed and Kel to be level 10. It makes no sense for Naxxaramas to be summoned 3 minutes into the game by picking Deathknell and sending Kel on a quick boat trip to Northrend.
    • Lady Deathwhisper should only be available either after Naxxaramas has been summoned or Capital City taken. This is part of making upgrades not depend on elapsed game time alone.
  • Forsaken:
    • Should have a barebones techtree while under Lich King's control. None of their lore-related events and upgrades should be available. This will both nerf UD team and make Forsaken players want to betray UD team in order to achieve their full potential. It also makes no sense for mind-controlled Forsaken to develop a religion of their own.
    • Should be able to free themselves from the Lich King if either of the following happens:
      • Weakened Lich King
      • Level 10 Sylvanas and 15 minutes since they became Forsaken.
      • Frozen Throne destroyed - automatically freed.
    • They would join the Neutral Renegades team or Horde team (if added to the map).
  • Orange:
    • They are oftentimes the last faction to be picked in the lobby due to, in my opinion, lacking paths (especially a second chance one) and lacking any real flavor. They even lost their op dragons to brown, which should be reversed honestly. A few days ago a player in the lobby I joined called Orange something in the lines of "slow and stupid" before leaving, as that was the only faction left to take.
    • Two new paths could be added:
      • Solo Maggy path - Maggy steps forth from his citadel declaring himself the sole ruler of Outland. This is basically the Orange from the start of LTA and can do the same as in LTA - capture the portals to Mardum or become the Illidari (Illidari would be still be possible even without going solo Maggy). Brown would be able to join him if he went Black Dragonflight path the same way Blood Elves can join the Illidari, which would give him control of Blackrock Spire and Rend Blackhand. Allying with Brown and going Illidari are mutually exclusive. Going Smolderthorn could make this path unavailable, thus tying Orange to Legion team.
      • Horde path - pretty much the same as the Horde faction in LTA. Would be in a Separate Horde team with Forsaken and Blood Elves being able to join him. Freed Forsaken could even start in this team by default.
  • Brown:
    • Should get his Black Dragons back or start with just a single Proto Drake (or none at all).
    • I remember that there was a spawnable Ogre base for Brown in LTA in what is the Farstrider Lodge area in LTF. This base could be spawned by Brown upon destroying the Farstrider Lodge.
    • Gruul's Ogres are now available once all Ogre Strongholds are under Brown's control. This upgrade would tie Brown to Legion team.
    • Gruul's Ogres become more of a techtree upgrade rather than a complete techtree overhaul - Raiders get replaced by Ogres, Ogre Magi become available, Drummers replace Kodos.
  • Legion:
    • As mentioned before, he should get Infernals, Pit Lords and Doom Guards and Kazaak upon his team taking/destroying certain capitals.
    • Could get a seconds chance Troll path. Trolls would be as the ones in LTA and would start in Horde team.
    • Could establish a small base at Purgation Isle and enthrall Kormok to join the Shadow Council (if the isle is added). A Shipyard and a Temple of the Damned for Shadow Council wouldn't hurt either.
    • Would start with a small base in Northrend. This would allow Teal to both help UD in the early game and fight Yellow in the south. Currently Mal'Ganis just gets tped away without second thoughts.
  • Dark Green:
    • Upon either Capital or Strathholme having been taken by UD team, Northrend Expedition would automatically happen, as Arthas would be pretty damn pissed and irrational if that happened (as he was in the lore after Stratholme was purged).
    • Once both Capital and Stratholme fall, Arthas goes mad and disappears, giving the player the choice to go Garithos path or automatically become the Scourge after a few minutes. If he choses Garithos, Blue gets Arthas.
    • Kul Tiras area could get an update. The northern shore is pretty much defenseless due to its wide beach. The Temple of Hydromancy (or whatever) could be moved back north (once it's redesigned) or to the harbor.
    • Would no longer start with Stromgarde and Galen. The research to get them would have similar requirements like Kul Tiras has.
  • Illidari:
    • Should no longer be in the Neutral Renegades team, but in a separate Illidari team together with his Blood Elven allies.
    • Should be able to do Illidan's spell from the Frozen Throne campaign. Would have a 3 minutes timer and could only be cast at a few locations on the map (Dalaran, Sun Well, Capital, etc).
    • The spell would weaken the Lich King (becomes vulnerable, loses all mana, etc. Lasts for x minutes), reduce the level of all undead heroes by one and perhaps kill 10 random units of each Undead player.
    • If given the mission to destroy the Frozen Throne, the Illidari team would be neutral to the Legion team (no vision shared, but cant attack eachother).

Thank you for reading this incredibly long post,
Rohirim91
 
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Yousef

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Thanks a lot for your time, unfortunately I wont be able to read this now and answer, I'm a bit on a break from WC3.
 

TerenasMenethil

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  1. Many units and heroes having quite small collision sizes - It is often hard to effectively surround units and heroes during unorderly retreats of enemy armies. One can imagine how frustrating is to see a huge, lumbering Magtheridon moving through tight gaps with no problem.
I agree with this, Magtheridon is a snake. Same problem for Gruul btw, but since he's slower it's less obvious.

  1. Starting air units should be few in numbers or not at all present (strong ones especially). Food cost could be increased to 2 for stronger types of air units like Nether Dragons, Frost Wyrms, Brown's/THC dragons, OJ's Black Drakes, etc. Weaker types could be limited to 6 like OJ's Black Dragon Whelps are in case of multiple air units being available to the player and/or his team (UD team for example). Air units should all have light/unarmored/summoned armor type, with Dragon Scales type of upgrade being available if it makes sense.
I didn't know proto-drakes and frost wyrms only costed 1 food, are you sure about this ? If yes, they should cost 2 or 3 food at least yes.

  1. Making some of these upgrades dependent on player actions/achievements. Some examples:
    1. Teal getting Infernals/Pit Lords/Doom Guards when his team destroys Ironforge, Dalaran, Capital. Quel'Thalas, Frozen Throne, etc. Kazzak could be made available after at least one of them is destroyed and Civil War happens.
    2. Smolderthorn trolls upgrade is available only after either Aerie Peak or Ironforge is available. It makes no sense for Voone and his tribesmen to join the Dark Horde without Rend and his bois proving they mean business.
No since this will encourage snowball. Alliance team is already punished by losing their capitals, they should not be punished even more by making teal stronger.
Also Dark horde need Voone if alliance is stacked and if legion team cant destroy ironforge or others capitals.

  • Orange:
    • They are oftentimes the last faction to be picked in the lobby due to, in my opinion, lacking paths (especially a second chance one) and lacking any real flavor. They even lost their op dragons to brown, which should be reversed honestly. A few days ago a player in the lobby I joined called Orange something in the lines of "slow and stupid" before leaving, as that was the only faction left to take.
    • Two new paths could be added:
      • Solo Maggy path - Maggy steps forth from his citadel declaring himself the sole ruler of Outland. This is basically the Orange from the start of LTA and can do the same as in LTA - capture the portals to Mardum or become the Illidari (Illidari would be still be possible even without going solo Maggy). Brown would be able to join him if he went Black Dragonflight path the same way Blood Elves can join the Illidari, which would give him control of Blackrock Spire and Rend Blackhand. Allying with Brown and going Illidari are mutually exclusive. Going Smolderthorn could make this path unavailable, thus tying Orange to Legion team.
      • Horde path - pretty much the same as the Horde faction in LTA. Would be in a Separate Horde team with Forsaken and Blood Elves being able to join him. Freed Forsaken could even start in this team by default.
I dont see why orange is slow. It's one of the best faction in lategame and if you know how to play with demoness you can still do shit in early. Tbh since Orange has lost his proto-drake he's fine quite fine for now.
And no, Orange should not get back his proto-drake. This unit just need to be deleted from the game or at least only be available for Black Dragon flight.
 

rohirim91

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I didn't know proto-drakes and frost wyrms only costed 1 food, are you sure about this ? If yes, they should cost 2 or 3 food at least yes.

No since this will encourage snowball. Alliance team is already punished by losing their capitals, they should not be punished even more by making teal stronger.
Also Dark horde need Voone if alliance is stacked and if legion team cant destroy ironforge or others capitals.

I dont see why orange is slow. It's one of the best faction in lategame and if you know how to play with demoness you can still do shit in early. Tbh since Orange has lost his proto-drake he's fine quite fine for now.
And no, Orange should not get back his proto-drake. This unit just need to be deleted from the game or at least only be available for Black Dragon flight.
Proto drakes do indeed cost 2 food now that i think of it. These were just examples of large air units that came into mind.
Making them Black Dragonflight exclusive would be a perfect solution id say. Brown could get Black Dragons to fill up the gap, or captured Red Dragons, for a more unique look (idk if this is ok lore wise, but some liberties don't hurt I guess).

I am fully aware that it would encourage snowball, but the current system encourages snowball as well. Even more so, due to the fact that everything is available after simply waiting for time to pass. Instead of Lady Deathwhisper, Sapphiron, Vrykul, Kazaak, Teal's Siege upgrade etc. requiring some effort to be put into getting them, they are made available by just starting the Civil War after some time passes.

The snowball is already here, and introducing more challenging requirements for unlocking parts of techtrees would slow it down. A new Ogre base for Brown in Farstrider Lodge area, unit rewards for Teal and nerfs that Yellow got in previous patches should keep the south situation balanced at least somewhat. If it is still too hard for Legion team to make progress, then Stromgarde could be made unavailable for Dark Green at start (he would still have the other base to the east of it). And with many things put behind a more tight lock for UD team, Alliance team should have an easier time defending their bases,

However, it quickly becomes obvious that the impact of implementing this would be huge, thus making speculation and going into details here pointless. The only way to see if all of this makes sense is to try it out in game. Thanks for sharing your thoughts :D!
 
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ZeroFlotsie

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There is one thing you forget, the snowball is required, the alliance team has acces to more gold, more free wood positions. Your ideas basically mean that if they arent able to push. The game is lost. And it turns into a reverse snowball. Alliance is meant to fall, its meant to fall apart and break. So paths happen, people leave the alliance to be able to join it later. Thats the entire point of the game.
 

rohirim91

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I agree, that's why Teal would get more units, Arthas could automatically go to Blue, Sylvans become Forsaken and Brown would get a small base at Farstrider Lodge once its destroyed. Heck, Teal/Orange could get a base in destroyed Anvilmar to aid their assault of Ironforge instead of having to make a forward base themselves.

Keep in mind that I listed only two examples, which only happened to be both for evil team. Alliance would get the same treatment. Not to mention that if the majority of aoe buffs are made factions specific, aoe healing spells are nerfed etc, the Alliance wont be as tough to beat as it is now.
 
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Spectator

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"Lady Deathwhisper should only be available either after Naxxaramas has been summoned or Capital City taken. This is part of making upgrades not depend on elapsed game time alone. "

On this I disagree, I think tying here to civil war was the better idea. The idea is that to ensure Evil team is weaker than alliance pre-civil War and they only become stronger and can beat the alliance after civil war. With undead attacking from north side and Legion/orcs from south.

Otherwise if Evil could beat alliance 6v6 without civil war then there would be no point to civil war unless to roleplay. People would just beat the alliance in the 6v6 and wipe them out totally off the game. Then Blue and undead would call gg and leave the game. This not speculation and has happened many games before with the stupid idea of only allowing Scourge civil war.

Also, It is important that pre-civil War evil is weaker so if an alliance member betrays, it's not totally over for alliance as one betrayal is huge as it makes a 6v6 into 7v5.
 

rohirim91

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You need to view that with other things I wrote I mind.

  • Naxxaramas should only be summonable by lich-form Kel'Thuzad, or at least require the Plague to be unleashed and Kel to be level 10. It makes no sense for Naxxaramas to be summoned 3 minutes into the game by picking Deathknell and sending Kel on a quick boat trip to Northrend.

As you can see, Naxxaramas wouldnt be available at the start anymore, thus assuring Gray can't get her in early-mid game. Capital City as a requirement simply came into mind as I was writing the post. I also never said that Civil War couldn't remain as one of the requirements, but since I never wrote that I understand why you misunderstood me. My point was that she needed more requirements than she currently has.
I also realised that I didnt write anything about Civil War, so I'll add it to the post. Basically, Civil War would fire automatically if certain criteria is met. Things that come first into my mind are the Destruction of Capital City, Dalaran or QT. This would stop Evil team from never splitting up.
 

Spectator

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Basically, Civil War would fire automatically if certain criteria is met. Things that come first into my mind are the Destruction of Capital City, Dalaran or QT. This would stop Evil team from never splitting up.
hahahaha It's actually quite amusing how many people can review one thing independently and come up with the same conclusion. This suggestion has a long controversial history.
 

TerenasMenethil

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Tbh I dont see why so much ppl focus on mechanics to force Civil War.
In the overhelming majority of games I have played, civil war is always triggered just after plague or 5-10 min after it.

And keep in mind that it surely don't help the evil team to dont trigger the civil.
If there is something fine in my opinion currently, it's the civil war mechanic. Anyways a good blue will always civil war to take saphiron right after the plague.
 

rohirim91

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I agree with you completely, but there needs to be a failsafe in case there are trolls, abusers, bad Blue/Teal players in the game or just people who wish to stomp alliance completely before splitting up (that was the case in a game I played last night for example). Even if these cases make up for 5%-10% of the games, they need to be prevented as much as possible. Im studying software engineering and have learned to cover all possible scenarios, as counting on "that happens rarely" or "users wont do this" is never a good thing.
 
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