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lordaeron tf Green

Varian Wrynn

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why is greens heal so powerful? dwarfs with full siege and cannon towers cant kill any backline units because the heal is keeping them alive through like 11 mortars and 8 siege tanks. wtf nerf terons heal or make it a one time heal. bad positioning can be remedied with his op heal keeping the army alive where he should be dead
 

Arlt

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I must admit, I wholeheartedly disagree. If Yellow plays it right then the backline of evil will not stand a chance. Yellow has enough siege and range to not care whether the casters are in a bad position or not, and the heal is the only thing giving them a fighting chance. Even then, if all the siege shoot at the same time, then the casters will be wiped out without any chance to fight back. If you were to nerf the heal, then Green would basically be useless as camping in Dun Algaz would mean certain death for any Green who venture close to it due to the Skybreaker, tanks in siege mode, mortars and cannon, and that is not even considering abilities and siege of yellow's allies. Evil has no such equivalent to counter the enemy backline until perhaps civil war with fel reavers, and even then those can just be banished by a good Dalaran player.
 

Varian Wrynn

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I must admit, I wholeheartedly disagree. If Yellow plays it right then the backline of evil will not stand a chance. Yellow has enough siege and range to not care whether the casters are in a bad position or not, and the heal is the only thing giving them a fighting chance. Even then, if all the siege shoot at the same time, then the casters will be wiped out without any chance to fight back. If you were to nerf the heal, then Green would basically be useless as camping in Dun Algaz would mean certain death for any Green who venture close to it due to the Skybreaker, tanks in siege mode, mortars and cannon, and that is not even considering abilities and siege of yellow's allies. Evil has no such equivalent to counter the enemy backline until perhaps civil war with fel reavers, and even then those can just be banished by a good Dalaran player.
In 1v1 scenarios without big high damage towers a good green can solo most yellows. Green can solo most races who don’t have adequate siege to counter. Siege is all that works, without siege a good enough green can 1v3. I’m sure you remember that game in quel when Vinci was annihilating highelves lb and dg. And don’t yellow gotta be strong enough to hold off atleast two south enemies in a choke point Until aid arrives? A good green is slaughtering yellow without that cannon which can be aimed down at the start of the game. Teron got the potential to never run out of mana and his heal keeps his army alive. If you don’t got dwarfs how you beating that?
 

Arlt

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In 1v1 scenarios without big high damage towers a good green can solo most yellows. Green can solo most races who don’t have adequate siege to counter. Siege is all that works, without siege a good enough green can 1v3. I’m sure you remember that game in quel when Vinci was annihilating highelves lb and dg. And don’t yellow gotta be strong enough to hold off atleast two south enemies in a choke point Until aid arrives? A good green is slaughtering yellow without that cannon which can be aimed down at the start of the game. Teron got the potential to never run out of mana and his heal keeps his army alive. If you don’t got dwarfs how you beating that?
I think you have to remember that Green is not as powerful that early in the game as Vinci was when we fought him in Quel. Plus, the main problem with Vinci was not his army - we defeated him 2v1, but that he could always escape and regroup. Dwarves should, however, be able to defeat a green if he is good, as Yellow is quite strong on his own and Green lacks frontline to hold against him. Meanwhile, Dwarves also have siege, which means that the unarmoured casters of green can die, and should die, if the yellow plays well. I think you're overestimating the early heal of Teron and might of Green in this scenario.
 

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If I remember correctly Highborne was an easy counter to Shadow council. They could just mana drain hard and stop green's healing. Hero aim of rangers is also a good counter to the council, tho I admit Council becomes really OP late game but early-mid game they can be dealt with. Dwarves could also hero aim green hard but that's after they get all their 4 heroes and create the God squad.

Still, I never thought each individual faction of legion apart from maybe teal at point and Orange were OP by themselves. It's just when legion groups together they become really strong. For a game like this, It's usually a bad idea to balance based on individual factions as it's a team game, not solo. The question should be is Legion team OP, not council OP and balance accordingly. If the council is too powerful or annoying to deal with within legion it should be considered how nerfing it would affect the legion team as a whole, not just SC.
 

TerenasMenethil

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Shadow council, low skillcap and still one of the most powerful faction of the game. Impossible to 1v1 when mastered, except against a good blue.

In early as yellow you can't do anything against a green with a brain, call your allies.
In late you can aim with your adventurers but be careful of the mass shield of vorpil.

I remember ALFO playing shadow council was impossible to take down kek, still he wasn't that good with others factions.

Also LTF may be a team game but there are always situations where you need to talk of 1v1
 

Arlt

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Are we seriously saying that it is impossible to take down a caster faction with unarmoured with a faction with the most siege in the game? Yes, the heal is strong, but if yellow can't aim the backline and destroy it with all the siege he has, then it is not the heal being OP, but the yellow being too bad or busy to do it. Yellow has multiple tools to kill him, he even has a frontline while Green has almost none. In other words: If yellow plays it right, then he should by all means be able to take down a green.

And imagine, for a second, if Green's heal wasn't as strong when fighting against Alliance - How in the nine circles of hell would Legion be able to stand up to the mass amounts of heal of alliance? LB's healing waves (Uther and casters), A'dal's heals, Velen's heals, Maraad's heal, holy lights, Kirin Tor heal, Anasterian's tranquility, priest heals of purple and red (crystals and just normal single-target), DG elite heal, pink elite healing wave (on self), bonfires on pink's priests. Plus, you can also get Calia (which means Legion loses Green's heal) and she has the exact same bleed as Teron. Meanwhile, what does Legion have? Almost nothing in comparison, especially when it comes to big aoe heals.

So I fully disagree with both centiments: Green can be strong as a solo faction, but yellow should by all means be able to take him down early game if he plays it right. If we look at it as a team game as well, then Green is essential when it comes to countering the healing potential of Alliance (especially late game). One could perhaps take a look at the ogres of Green and how to nerf them or remove them, as they are quite strong for tanking and aiming, as to make Green more of a squishy casters faction, but don't you even think about nerfing or removing the heal, cuz otherwise Green's casters will be too easy to kill, and the Legion team will suffer as a whole - especially if you don't also remove or nerf the Alliance heals at the same time.

Thanks for listening to my ted talk. x)
 

TerenasMenethil

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Ye try to fight ALFO when he was shadow council, or even a skilled green player, with yellow and try to make the same conclusion after. Green is simply a counter to yellow, maybe cuz ppl forget that yellow has no dispells at all, and legion team player should make advantage of that instead of throwing themselves like fools on Dun Algaz without even destroying the canon before or waiting the plague because 5 alliance players are camping a towered dun algaz with 10 generators. Ppl are also very afraid of the skybreaker while the 4 fel wyrms can take him down and harass him easily, ask @Jorlorn23 for that. (Remember dwarves has no ensnare in early)

Now I dont say to nerf Teron heal, just that Shadow Council has the lowest skillcap of the legion team and not a faction to buff more, because it has the potential to be one of the strongest faction of the game, just look at his toolkit, and the double bubble of vorpil with the ability of Archimonde to reset CD kek. Btw green counter purple very hard also with his fel ray, ask @Fablus who is a main green too.

Now that's why yellow can't 1v1 a shadow council where he can easily 1v1 orange or brown in early.
 

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"Are we seriously saying that it is impossible to take down a caster faction with unarmoured with a faction with the most siege in the game? "
Didn't read the whole thread, but honestly just send 60 felsabers with 0 colision to aim mortars and poof poof DW dps
You might say he has roar Yay, poof poof get devoured and you get it right back in the face
Then you can't build gryphons early so bye bye dps, and even if Magni R is dope asf, a solo green will 99% of the time use ogres if he is not stupid
Not for their tankyness which is rather crap, but for the stun

Just a few notes on how to counter yellow as green :D @Arlt
 

Arlt

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"Are we seriously saying that it is impossible to take down a caster faction with unarmoured with a faction with the most siege in the game? "
Didn't read the whole thread, but honestly just send 60 felsabers with 0 colision to aim mortars and poof poof DW dps
You might say he has roar Yay, poof poof get devoured and you get it right back in the face
Then you can't build gryphons early so bye bye dps, and even if Magni R is dope asf, a solo green will 99% of the time use ogres if he is not stupid
Not for their tankyness which is rather crap, but for the stun

Just a few notes on how to counter yellow as green :D @Arlt
The problem with sabers is that it requires one of the later upgrades, and most of the time you won’t just be able to get to the mortars because yellow will easily see it and counter it. Purge does help here.
You can also only get 16 of them. Yellow should, by the point of Green coming, also not be fighting in an open field as that would mean that orange and teal would be there as well, which means that the chances for aiming his backline are even more slim. ^^

The point with ogres is of course true, but even if he has stun, that doesn’t mean he specifically counters yellow, but it helps. But by the time he has ogres, yellow should also have a full army, cuz green has ton of upgrades to get through to even think about getting the more interesting units such as ogres.

Ye try to fight ALFO when he was shadow council, or even a skilled green player, with yellow and try to make the same conclusion after. Green is simply a counter to yellow, maybe cuz ppl forget that yellow has no dispells at all, and legion team player should make advantage of that instead of throwing themselves like fools on Dun Algaz without even destroying the canon before or waiting the plague because 5 alliance players are camping a towered dun algaz with 10 generators. Ppl are also very afraid of the skybreaker while the 4 fel wyrms can take him down and harass him easily, ask @Jorlorn23 for that. (Remember dwarves has no ensnare in early)

Now I dont say to nerf Teron heal, just that Shadow Council has the lowest skillcap of the legion team and not a faction to buff more, because it has the potential to be one of the strongest faction of the game, just look at his toolkit, and the double bubble of vorpil with the ability of Archimonde to reset CD kek. Btw green counter purple very hard also with his fel ray, ask @Fablus who is a main green too.

Now that's why yellow can't 1v1 a shadow council where he can easily 1v1 orange or brown in early.
I can tell you that I have played against him multiple times as green and him as yellow, and it works the exact same way the other way.
The point with dispell is indeed true, but luckily this is a team game and the actual chances of fighting green alone are slim due to the arrival of green means the arrival of orange, teal, and then purple, highborne etc.
If purple is there, then he can just heal skybreaker to full with his staff btw, so the point with skybreaker being easy to kill is only somewhat true.

Anyway, my point was never to buff green more, I think that would be ridicilous as he is quite strong in late game already, but I agree that the heal should not be touched, as it is essential for the legion team. I am also aware of the strong counter to purple, as I main purple most of the time.
 

TerenasMenethil

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I can tell you that I have played against him multiple times as green and him as yellow, and it works the exact same way the other way.
The point with dispell is indeed true, but luckily this is a team game and the actual chances of fighting green alone are slim due to the arrival of green means the arrival of orange, teal, and then purple, highborne etc.
If purple is there, then he can just heal skybreaker to full with his staff btw, so the point with skybreaker being easy to kill is only somewhat true.

Anyway, my point was never to buff green more, I think that would be ridicilous as he is quite strong in late game already, but I agree that the heal should not be touched, as it is essential for the legion team. I am also aware of the strong counter to purple, as I main purple most of the time.
We were talking about a 1v1 situation between green and yellow, not about the others factions coming to help them.

My point stand as an advice for the author and the others, do not try to 1v1 a shadow council as yellow in early. At best it will be a loss of gold for yellow, at worst you will lose everything.
 

Arlt

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We were talking about a 1v1 situation between green and yellow, not about the others factions coming to help them.

My point stand as an advice for the author and the others, do not try to 1v1 a shadow council as yellow in early. At best it will be a loss of gold for yellow, at worst you will lose everything.
I disagree, do try - you have the tools. Just be prepared for a difficult fight. :D
 

TerenasMenethil

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I disagree, do try - you have the tools. Just be prepared for a difficult fight. :D
What tools as yellow in early ? Except losing your bear warriors easily since they take 120% dmg against magic. Use Siege mode ? So vorpil use his bubble and what can yellow do then, back and lose his tank locked in siege mode ? Dispells the summon ? No way since you're a dwarf.

Even if yellow win the initial fight, green can hit and run, spam his spells and summons to harrass yellow so hard that he will end up with nothing.

Anyways grimmheart summed up well the situation.
 

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I agree with Oynx and Terenas here, I don't see Dwarves beating Green in an even fight, especially pre-expedition. Its true Siege does do good damage but If green is smart it doesn't matter much, siege damage is spread and it takes some time before it can kill Green's backline through the heals. Meanwhile, Dwarves lack healing and good anti-magic against Green. Green's magic damage is focus fired and he can just kill Yellow's front line really fast while poking him and run when he is low. Through hit and run green just keeps poking and killing while only taking health damage and dwarves, especially siege are terrible at chasing which eventually leads to dwarves loss 9 out of 10 times.

However, Arlt has a point though since Dwarves vs Green is not as bad as it sounds early since early it's not an even fight. Green still lacks most of his power-spikes especially from lvls while Dwarves has a good gold advantage while also dwarves strategic objective is to defend when solo so they have the huge advantage of camping behind a choke-point which makes a green hit and run less effective since dwarves don't have to defeat green but only hold south.

Still, I rarely have seen situations when dwarves have to 1v1 green in south. Usually, It's a 6v4 south pre-plague with alliance smashing legion hard to try to buy time for plague and delay legion's late-game power advantage. And then It's usually 2v4 or 1v4 south with Dwarves camping and holding south while rest of alliance is busy with the plague.
 

Varian Wrynn

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I disagree, do try - you have the tools. Just be prepared for a difficult fight. :D
green late game is definently op. imagine chasing down green and he turns around and nukes your heros and then retreats, rebuilds and does it all over again until your whole alliance is hero less. how do you defend against army of summons, high damage spell casters supported by multiple heals and a never ending constant heal, fel rays that act like buildings and get attacked last with heavy armor that cant be attacked by spell casters a big immune shield nether dragons, and murmur with races like lb, pink, red, purple?
they have basically no good enough counters to that. and that's just green by himself. he can mess you up, retreat regroup and do it all over again with no consequences whatsoever. all these races nerfed and i have yet to see green get looked at. dwarfs without those towers is not holding vs green. siege is the only "tool" that works and it barely works. play a game vs anybody who plays green regularly and watch how fast your alliance crumbles to one player.
 

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green late game is definently op. imagine chasing down green and he turns around and nukes your heros and then retreats, rebuilds and does it all over again until your whole alliance is hero less. how do you defend against army of summons, high damage spell casters supported by multiple heals and a never ending constant heal, fel rays that act like buildings and get attacked last with heavy armor that cant be attacked by spell casters a big immune shield nether dragons, and murmur with races like lb, pink, red, purple?
they have basically no good enough counters to that. and that's just green by himself. he can mess you up, retreat regroup and do it all over again with no consequences whatsoever. all these races nerfed and i have yet to see green get looked at. dwarfs without those towers is not holding vs green. siege is the only "tool" that works and it barely works. play a game vs anybody who plays green regularly and watch how fast your alliance crumbles to one player.
I never denied that Green was OP late game, or that yellow could solo him at that point. I only argued that Yellow would be able to beat him in a fair fight in early game (around the first 20 min) in a battle between the two, as Green requires upgrades and civil war to reach his full potential, while Yellow doesn't suffer from that disadvantage to the same extend. I hope I wasn't too elusive on that point.
 

Varian Wrynn

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I never denied that Green was OP late game, or that yellow could solo him at that point. I only argued that Yellow would be able to beat him in a fair fight in early game (around the first 20 min) in a battle between the two, as Green requires upgrades and civil war to reach his full potential, while Yellow doesn't suffer from that disadvantage to the same extend. I hope I wasn't too elusive on that point.
This is the green I’m talking about. early game green is that not strong because he doesn’t have anything yet. A 6/6 upgrade green With everything or most of everything is melting your army starting with the hero’s first if he is smart.. and when you try to get to his army you are blocked by fel rays, ogres and infinite summons because shadow council does not run low on mana. Why does this highly mobile and caster heavy race have frontline units with heavy armor immune to spell casters with 800 health And a everlasting heal. No other race heals like that except green. Green also has more than just Terons heal they have units that do extra healing. Makes Any race with inadequate siege useless except scourge because they have flying units with splash damage that do piercing and magic damage. The only reason dwarfs even survive in south is because their base is hard to take. After ironforge falls if dwarf doesn’t go aerie peak path he is basically a hero squad for the rest of the game. If green makes a mistake he can get everything important out easily.
 

Arlt

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This is the green I’m talking about. early game green is that not strong because he doesn’t have anything yet. A 6/6 upgrade green With everything or most of everything is melting your army starting with the hero’s first if he is smart.. and when you try to get to his army you are blocked by fel rays, ogres and infinite summons because shadow council does not run low on mana. Why does this highly mobile and caster heavy race have frontline units with heavy armor immune to spell casters with 800 health And a everlasting heal. No other race heals like that except green. Green also has more than just Terons heal they have units that do extra healing. Makes Any race with inadequate siege useless except scourge because they have flying units with splash damage that do piercing and magic damage. The only reason dwarfs even survive in south is because their base is hard to take. After ironforge falls if dwarf doesn’t go aerie peak path he is basically a hero squad for the rest of the game. If green makes a mistake he can get everything important out easily.
I assumed you were talking about early fight as you said it was against yellow - therefore most likely the early fight when Yellow still is an important player. I do, however, agree that Green has way too strong tools late game, especially with his ogres and fel rays on top of the heal. Nonetheless, I don't think Green's heal should be touched too much as it is the only big and consistent heal Legion has vs Alliance's many.
 
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