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Plans for LTF after Reforged

Marshmalo

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So Blizzcon is coming soon and everyone is expecting a big anouncement or possibly a release date for Reforged, at the very latest the game legally has to release on 31 december 2019, so Reforged will soon be upon us and its time to start planning for the future! Despite Blizzard's current wall of silence...

As we still know so little about how custom games will work in Warcraft 3, there are various routes we might have to take in order to make the map playable in Reforged. While this thread specifically discuses LTF it could also apply to any large macro map on the same scale.
Macro maps have taken a huge beating since Blizzard started caring about WC3 again, but due to the hard work of their editors maps like LTF/LTA/KTA and Az Wars have, for the most part, surived these changes. The fact that these maps are still playable in the latest and "final" patch before Reforged gives me hope that the migration to reforged shouldnt be too bumpy.

OPTION 1: Remake LTF using Reforged High Quality Graphics.

This option would utilise Reforged quality graphics to its fullest and use all those beutiful HD models we've seen in the trailers. However this would be a lot of work and I class this as a remake due to the fact all the terrain will most likely need to be redesigned using Reforged quality doodads and decorations.
There is also the issue of limited models, we would need to use only Blizzard models and we don't have replacements for all the custom models we use in LTF. Some could be replaced using blizzard Reforged models but others would be more problematic, such as finding a replacement for Silverhand's Human archers. It would certainly look out of place to have a High Elf or Dwarven ranged unit in this human faction.

However, if current model formats are still useable in Reforged (Warcraft 3 currently uses MDX model format), then we could find appropriate high quality replacement models which have been ripped from WoW. Theres a huge selection of WoW models which we could use and save us from having to remove heroes or unit choices due to lack of HQ models.

I expect there will be an enthusiastic Reforged modeling community, but it will be a long while until this matures to give us the huge array of custom models map editors currently have at their disposal.

However, even if we are able to overcome the above challenges, there is still the question of performance. We don't know how a map of LTF's size and complexity will run on Reforged graphics, it may be that is is simply not feasable to have a custom game of this scale using such HQ graphics and could cause an increase in crashes or slowdown of performance.
To work around this we may need to reduce the amount of content and playable area available in the game, for example we could remove some of the playable area down south and Outland. Therefore we would need to remove dark hard and give Nerubians to a single player so we can keep the 6v6 format.

We may also need to reduce the maximum army size and have the armies capped at a similiar size to standard melee WC3 per player. So this option may require some sacrifice but would enable us to play LTF in beutiful Reforged graphics.

OPTION 2: Enable current LTF in Reforged but using old models


This option would mean we carry on using current custom models in the map but enable the game to be playable in Reforged. Essentially this would be LTF in it's current form but just using the improved shaders and lighting effects from Reforged. So all models would be standard WC3 quality but this means we would hopefully not have to remove any content or terrain.
This is the simplest way of porting the map over to reforged but relies on MDX model format being useable in Reforged. I have been told we should still be able to use MDX format but we dont know whether this model format can be used in conjunction with the new lighting system. If we can do this then there would still be a general improvement in graphics in LTF, but just not to the same level as full Reforged Graphics.

OPTION 3: Keep LTF as a classic WC3 game
Blizzard have said Reforged players will still be able to switch their client into classic mode and play custom maps using the old game client, so if we can't get LTF working in Reforged then there is still the potential of keeping the map going perhaps. However, this seems like the least attractive option to me and I really hope it dosn't come to this!
Reforged is the future and I personally believe that maps which can't adapt will simply wither and die or be replaced by a Reforged counterpart.

Clearly, all of these options are pure conjecture as we still know so little about Reforged and what it means for custom maps. Yes we have been given some promises and infomation through interviews and leaks, but until Reforged is here and in our hands (metaphorically speaking!), theres no telling how compatible it will be with maps like LTF. Therefore I think its a good idea for map makers to start thinking about how they will import their maps over and have a few options to work with.

Lets hope we get some more info at BlizzCon and if you got this far then thanks for reading this big long thread! :)
 

Dragon

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I hope Option 1 is possible, although option 3 could still be in effect if option 1 or 2 are available.
 

Yousef

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Or maybe a new TA/F from scratch made specifically for reforged!
On a serious note I think we will be able to go with option 1 without removing anything, but that's just too optimistic, maybe if they give us something in object editor like 2 models for the same unit one that would appear to people playing on Reforged and one that would appear for people playing on classic then we can have both option 1 and 3 at the same time.
 

Elbadruhel

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I was asking Blizzard for a fix for the freezing their last patches is causing in my map and a good bunch of other ones. I had no response but silence, but i have got finally some "answer": "They are not going to release any new patch to fix what they broke because it would take too much resources and they are focused on reforged. But we shouldnt worry because we could buy reforged and play it in around 2-3 months". So reforged should be coming out between 23 nov and 23 dec. I guess maybe for christmash?

Btw, @Yousef @Marshmalo or any other experienced mapper. I may have discover some clues about why my map freezes around 10-15 mins since last patch, but not in every game. If any of you would be interested in giving me a lill helping hand, MP me. (I may just ask you for yout timer trigger ^^).

Greetings guys. Im happy of seeing some w3 related thread in this forum, it was looking quite dead.
 

bananashoes112

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I was asking Blizzard for a fix for the freezing their last patches is causing in my map and a good bunch of other ones. I had no response but silence, but i have got finally some "answer": "They are not going to release any new patch to fix what they broke because it would take too much resources and they are focused on reforged. But we shouldnt worry because we could buy reforged and play it in around 2-3 months". So reforged should be coming out between 23 nov and 23 dec. I guess maybe for christmash?

Btw, @Yousef @Marshmalo or any other experienced mapper. I may have discover some clues about why my map freezes around 10-15 mins since last patch, but not in every game. If any of you would be interested in giving me a lill helping hand, MP me. (I may just ask you for yout timer trigger ^^).

Greetings guys. Im happy of seeing some w3 related thread in this forum, it was looking quite dead.
i woud love to help to help you :) my best freind need any support i jump over roofs to get to you i even kill and steal flying carpet to reach you faster i even get genia and wished my way to your house


you want help from yousef i can get yousefl to help dont worry elba i got connection

the only thing i want return elba is you to stop lying you self admitted your liar and that dont matter that all in past

what importen you stop lying and i give all help you need
 
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Marshmalo

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Or maybe a new TA/F from scratch made specifically for reforged!
On a serious note I think we will be able to go with option 1 without removing anything, but that's just too optimistic, maybe if they give us something in object editor like 2 models for the same unit one that would appear to people playing on Reforged and one that would appear for people playing on classic then we can have both option 1 and 3 at the same time.
I think having a map which enables the same gameplay on reforged and classic would actually be the hardest and most complicated option, every classic doodad model should have its reforged version but from the gameplay we've seen so far I can see some of these will need to be used differently in Reforged. The best example of this is the stone walls around Stratholme in the Culling campaign map. They look huge and need to be carefully positioned so each wall seemlessly attaches to the joining sections.

If we took LTF and opening it in the Reforged world editor, automatically converting all doodads into their Reforged models then the map would look a mess, thats why I expect we will need to do some serious reterraining if we want to use Reforged graphics!

There's also some performance issues to consider, and we may need to reduce the maximum food count down from 200, imagine 2400+ reforged models in one map, the Reforged model quality is so high I'm not sure peoples computers can handle that.

I would rather not have to remove stuff too but if we need to make the map smaller then think of it as a "refocusing" of the map onto the Lordaeron and Northrend region and the events of the 3rd war, it may not be such a bad option but I also hope we don't need to resort this!

I was asking Blizzard for a fix for the freezing their last patches is causing in my map and a good bunch of other ones. I had no response but silence, but i have got finally some "answer": "They are not going to release any new patch to fix what they broke because it would take too much resources and they are focused on reforged. But we shouldnt worry because we could buy reforged and play it in around 2-3 months". So reforged should be coming out between 23 nov and 23 dec. I guess maybe for christmash?

Btw, @Yousef @Marshmalo or any other experienced mapper. I may have discover some clues about why my map freezes around 10-15 mins since last patch, but not in every game. If any of you would be interested in giving me a lill helping hand, MP me. (I may just ask you for yout timer trigger ^^).

Greetings guys. Im happy of seeing some w3 related thread in this forum, it was looking quite dead.
Well, the timer triggers used in NewGen world editor are not compatable with the latest editor, but if this was the problem then I'd expect you'd get an error message when opening the map in the latest world editor.

It's a shame Blizzard are not being more helpful, but I guess they have their hands full right now trying to release Reforged within the 2019 date and many people suspect they are running behind schedule. They were sent a copy of LTA as well but I doubt Blizzard have time to look through these kind of huge complex macro maps right now.

Me and Yousef have struggled with LTF and I know that the LTA team are struggling against the instability issues as well, as I mentioned before I'm not sure how I could help as I still don't understand the reasons for crashes in my own maps yet.

However I would recomend checking for any triggers which execute large amounts of actions in loops with a wait in them, Hahay from the LTA editor team noticed we had a trigger which looped with a small wait in, which was causing the game engine to become confused and couldnt handle the tiny wait in this looped action. This was the cause of the unit ownership transfer crash which plagued the map for months, its funny how 1 small trigger can be so destructive!

I would also disable any triggers you suspect are causing issues, so if you think it could be a timer issue then disable all timers and test the map again. Sometimes only trial and error will work.

You could also post an unprotected version of the map on the Hive forums, they are very helpful over there and someone may want to have a look at it.
 

Elbadruhel

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I only use vanilla editor and i use only 1 wait in all my triggers to avoid their bugs, so... I am checking all my triggers, one by one, optimizing processing and removing the few leaks there were left. But idk what could be broken. If i could have an idea of what is causing the issue i could fix it much easier, the problem is there isnt any clue. And as there are lots of maps affected by the freezing it could seem like they broke something internal of the game, and not just us doing bad triggering. Your maps are unstable, but at least is "your fault", and you get a crash, you can work with that and solve the problems you caused as you said you did with that "wait trigger". The problem with freezing is that we are left clueless. And blizzard said "fuck you and buy reforged" :/ Maybe the only hope w3 community have is reforged not being releasing full of bugs, somehting me (and a lot of people in the hive) doubt, sadly.
 

Archion

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Keep the door open for all three options incase one ends up in a dead end and thus a dead map, You have to make the transition to reforged if you want to follow the community, classic will become obsolete if reforged is even half decent, wc3 classic map as last resort, Go for reforged map with good graphics, but if you only have bad graphic models available for certain heros it won't bother anyone to see them in the map until they can be replaced. and replacing models is a fairly easy thing at the end of the day, so maybe even just use the crappy wc3 custom models and focus on making sure the rest of it it transitions smoothly. Wc3 reforged will reignite the passion people have over the singleplayer storyline and make them keen for a multiplayer map with storyline lore so its perfect
 
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